Author Topic: I don't like it  (Read 32391 times)

random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
I don't like it
« on: October 11, 2010, 01:05:23 PM »
Misty Croslin story

OK, the background on this is that Croslin was the babysitter when Haleigh Cummings, a 5-year-old girl in Florida, went missing about a year and a half ago.  The girl's father, who was also Croslin's husband, was at work; Croslin said she put the kids to bed, went to sleep, woke up when she heard a noise around 3 AM, and discovered the girl gone and the back door propped open.  End of trail.  They never found the kid. 

Incidentally, the father, Ronald Cummings, was 25 and Croslin was 17.  They got a divorce after the girl went missing.  This was not a terribly stable home, with drug charges and whatnot all over the place.  This year, almost a year after Haleigh vanished, Cummings and his brother and Croslin were all nailed in an Oxycodone drug sting.  Ronald and Tommy Cummings reportedly each got 15 years.  Croslin was just sentenced to 25 years.

WTF?  First, according to the AP Croslin was a minor at the time of her arrest.  OK, she was almost not still a minor, but that shouldn't be how it automatically works, and she was still a minor.  If she'd been tried as a minor, she wouldn't have gotten more than 6 years.  Second, she was probably a tag-along on the drug deal.  Third, extenuating circumstances galore, especially for a minor.  Sexual abuse and assault in her past, her ex-husband and his family (who all blame her for the girl's disappearance, although the police don't) as bad influences, both of her parents have drug-dealing priors, etc.  In fact, her father was in jail on drug charges when she was arrested.  Fourth, she pled no contest.

Can't help but think she was thrown away by the judge because the court's presuming that she's responsible for the kid's disappearance.  She might be, and she just as easily might not know anything about what happened, but she's not even a suspect in that case.  And she gets almost twice the sentence of the other two?  In fact, according to the AP, the adult convicted of raping her when she was twelve got an eight-year sentence, but she gets 25 years for being part of a criminal conspiracy to sell Oxycodone?

She did change the details of her story about what happened the night Haleigh disappeared, but only (A) under extensive police interrogation (which frequently renders any statement meaningless) or (B) through new versions released by her attorneys (which, uh, yeah).

To add stupidity to the injustice of her sentence, the judge also ordered her to pay a half-million-dollar fine and serve five years of drug-abuse probation after she gets out of prison.  You know, when she's 43.  Sure, that makes sense.

TFJ

  • Trusted
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,818
  • Karma: +119/-33
  • j00 no it
    • wes bite
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2010, 03:52:40 PM »
gone baby gone.
That almost makes me want a whole in my ear.
Maybe I could stick one in my belly button. - mo
Get rid of the eyeliner, and it's about the same either way. - aXe

random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2010, 04:08:07 PM »
Yeah, you said it.  It's like the judge was all TOO DIFFICULT.  Trash it and start over.

I gotta be honest about something, here.  I totally understand the desire to punish people for doing bad things, I really do, but if five years in prison doesn't rehabilitate you, then prison is completely broken and needs to be started over pretty much from scratch.  The system is a bad joke -- virtually no sane person believes that people generally come out of prison better than they went in.  The GOP likes to say welfare creates an impoverished criminal underclass, and yet they support the penal system we have, which basically takes criminals and makes them worse at great public expense.  You don't fix an antisocial dog by locking it in a kennel for a year.

I honestly don't think that judge should be on the bench, although I realize we may not have preferable replacements waiting around.  Sentencing an 18-year-old to 25 years in prison is not sane.  Even if she somehow got out in twelve years, say, she's probably going to be more screwed up than she is now, which is saying something.  And, what, is this meant to be a deterrent?  To effed-up teenagers in love with older drug dealers?

Can't help but think a judge like that has done more harm and less good than this stupid kid ever managed to.

mo

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,757
  • Karma: +136/-55
    • x
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2010, 05:54:07 PM »
Yeah, that's pretty fucked up. She's not done yet either - facing charges in another county too, apparently.
It's symbolic of our struggle against reality.

random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 03:53:52 PM »
In the Susan Wright case, which just finished its sentencing phase (she got 20 years for killing her husband) . . . OK, the nutshell stuff relevant to my :soapbox: :

- She stabbed her husband to death and buried the body in the backyard.

- Prosecutors say he was a saint and that she had a careful plan, drugging him, roping him down on the bed, and then stabbing him.

- The defense says he was a drug addict and abuser and that she killed him in self-defense after he threatened to kill her.

- Evidence suggests he had traces of GHB in his blood.  She stabbed him over 200 times.  The rest of the forensic evidence, whatever there was, didn't make it into the news stories I've seen.

- A defense psychologist said she was post-traumatic and in a dissociative state.  Eh, maybe.  Some things came to light that suggest that the Defense part of his job title is the more important part.

- Her defense attorney from her trial called the psychologist and secretly taped him while getting him to admit that some of what White told him could conceivably suggest it wasn't self-defense.  The psychologist's response was that he'd find a way around that -- which makes him look bad, not necessarily her.  The defense attorney then provided this tape to the prosecutors, and it was used against her at the sentencing phase.

Wait, what?  Her defense attorney secretly taped her therapist and gave the tape to prosecutors?  How the hell does that happen?

Frankly, if you ask me, she's guilty, but clearly she's unhinged.  A vanishingly small number of cold-blooded murderers stab someone over 200 times.  Either that's the result of traumatic provocation or deep-seating psychosis or both.  She had a crazy defense and the typical asshole prosecution -- a model that, frankly, I don't believe is necessary, good for the system or the country, or particularly persuasive.  I mean, if you're on the jury, it's easy to decide that this person committed a murder.  Believing that they're a fundamentally absolute-evil master criminal yadda yadda is far too much to ask.  It's a ridiculous overreach by the prosecutors, whether they get away with it or not, and they know perfectly well it's usually an intentional distortion of the truth.

I have no problem believing this woman killed her husband and that she's probably a danger to herself and others, but what a crappy system.  And, seriously, her defense attorney can switch teams after the trial but before sentencing?  WTF?

random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 03:58:49 PM »
I also don't like that Keith Olbermann was suspended indefinitely without pay for making donations to three Democratic candidates.  I don't see how that's a conflict of interest that undermines his credibility or MSNBC's.  Not that MSNBC has any real credibility anyway.  I mean, even if they didn't put Microsoft in the damned name, it's kind of a joke in the first place.  Olbermann is one of their stronger pillars.

Fox News, as a corporation, donated a million to the GOP governor's association -- and defended it by saying, hey, we're a corporation, and Republicans are nicer to corporations.  (OK, they said they believed in free-market economics, and they believe Republicans were the party of free markets, but that's barely even coded.)  But Olbermann gets kicked in the nuts for, what, having a party affiliation that other people made public? 

I'd like to see him sue over this.  That should not be an enforceable bit of contract.  If he'd said Republicans were all Nazis, then yes, but giving money to a few Democrats is just having a political interest.  Seems like a civil rights issue to me.  He's a fucking commentator, for crying out loud, and no one thinks he works at Fox.

Now, he was lame to say that Jon Stewart jumped the shark because of the DC rally.  I mean, it's too soon to know, even if it's somehow true.  But that's different.

First Post

  • Trusted
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,275
  • Karma: +87/-3
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 04:52:57 PM »
Wow this actually triggered a memory of a dream I was having last night. I was debating with a former cow-orker about whether women are better cold-hearted murderers than men. I was citing nature where mamas eat their babies and etc, then she noted that men had killed millions more than women over the course of history, but I answered that it was due to men mostly getting to be the ones who fought the wars, so it's obviously a workplace discrimination thing, plus the glass ceiling for being a genocidal dictator and etc. That's all I remember tho.






random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 06:47:03 PM »
:lol:

Yeah, you've got to define your terms before you start a debate like that.

mybabysmomma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,063
  • Karma: +19/-1
  • and a shark shall eat them
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2010, 07:37:00 AM »
I would say, just off the top of my head, men are more prolific killers and I would attribute that to testosterone and women more emotional killers.  But I could just be making that all up.
I need this done ASAP, or whenever you can get around to it.  Tomorrow is fine.

Axe, he hates EVERYTHING

random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2010, 10:17:17 AM »
It's possible that a whole lot of people who do get murdered would eventually be murdered by women if men didn't murder those people first.  Men tend to be impatient.


There's obviously a huge cultural issue embedded in this whole issue, but part of it, too, is that women are more likely to get away with murder due to being unsuspected or not taken seriously.  Also, a lot of the homicides committed by women are . . . how to put this . . . more incomprehensible to men.  Female serial killers often have motivations radically different from the more expected male serial killer motivations, and the still essentially male justice system (of pick almost any country) isn't so much on the lookout for that.

Most male serial killers are sexual psychopaths ('hunters') or relatively indiscriminate impulse killers ('rogue'), which are both pretty testosterone-driven psychoses.  Most known female serial killers are more deliberate -- your black widows, your infanticides, your angel-of-death hospital killers.  Of course, there's some overlap, and sociologists have made good arguments that these are largely culturally defined roles, but the end result is that it seems that women are much more likely to get away with a more or less equivalent murder.

How warlike women are, per se, remains largely unknown.  This is definitely a case where men rush in and make the question pretty much moot.

random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2010, 12:59:47 AM »
This one's provisional, mostly because the reporting on it so far seems unclear, but . . . that kid in Portland who tried to blow up the Xmas tree lighting ceremony.

Here's the thing:  Reports on this are not consistent or clear on how long this kid was under observation and/or talking to FBI agents when he thought he was talking to terrorists in Pakistan.  He's 19 now, and the FBI at least had him in hand since August 2009.  Was he 18 then?  Some reports said the FBI had him under observation since he was 15.  And at some point he was exchanging emails with some terrorist guy in Pakistan, but then at some point afterward he was actually talking to US agents just pretending to be terrorist guys.

The US agents, in a 'sting operation', communicated with him as a group and as separate individuals, encouraged him, taught him how to make a car bomb (one that wouldn't actually work), and even helped him load the fake car bomb into the vehicle.  They also messed around with him, such as keeping him from being able to go to Alaska for a summer job program.

So far, everyone who knew this kid in high school says he was a very normal kid, into hip hop and sports, who had Muslim friends but never expressed unusual political views, etc.  And they seem awfully surprised at how this has turned out.

So the question is, if the FBI had this kid under surveillance, is this not something that could have just been nipped in the bud?  I've yet to see anyone in the media questioning it.  Maybe this kid is a psychopath or something.  I have no way of knowing.  But maybe a visit a year and a half ago and court-mandated therapy would have this kid in college now, with no thoughts of terrorism.  Right now, from what I've read so far, it seems like at least 75% of his terrorism was more or less orchestrated by the feds in order to make an arrest.

I guess I hope I'm wrong and that this kid does have a very dangerous screw loose, because I'd hate to think that, what, they were using him to make themselves look good, or that they were using him as a practice run, or even that they just got carried away.  But right now it looks a lot less impressive than they're making it out to be.

I'm also not thrilled that they let him attempt to set off the bomb and waited until he did before they arrested him.  Yeah, I realize you wanted an ironclad case, but if he had some fancy addition to the plan that you didn't know about . . . sheesh.

mo

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,757
  • Karma: +136/-55
    • x
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2010, 07:37:53 AM »
I agree with most of what you're saying, and I believe the FBI is going to take some heat, even from the mainstream media on this. I haven't heard that they had been working with him since he was 15 though.

To play FBI's advocate here, if you can take someone and convince them to blow up hundreds of innocent people, there's something very wrong with that individual. Teh Feds played with him way longer than they needed to, but this guy does not deserve freedom. Maybe you're right, in that at one point he might could have been put in therapy and "fixed", or whatever, but once it's proven he was willing to blow up hundreds of innocent people, I could give a shit about this guy's future.
It's symbolic of our struggle against reality.

random axe

  • Concerned Netizen
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,733
  • Karma: +92/-20
  • Concern Intensifies
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2010, 09:59:41 AM »
Quote
To play FBI's advocate here, if you can take someone and convince them to blow up hundreds of innocent people, there's something very wrong with that individual.

If he were 30, then maybe.  Anyone could convince a teenager to blow up hundreds of innocent people.

Frankly, a hell of a lot of 30-year-olds who are harmless on their own could be convinced to do almost anything if three or four people patiently try to talk them into it.  Sometimes you only need one Iago with a good patter.

But, yeah, I'm not arguing that this kid doesn't have a screw loose and doesn't have a propensity toward violent crime.  I have no idea.  Before the feds got involved, according to the stories I've seen as of this morning, his only confirmed terrorist act was to write an article on calisthenics (titled "Getting in shape without weights") that was published in an online jihadist magazine. 

mo

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,757
  • Karma: +136/-55
    • x
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2010, 10:25:00 AM »
Quote
Anyone could convince a teenager to blow up hundreds of innocent people.

We're just going to have to disagree there, but to argue your point, I guess the Manson family would be a good example. It would certainly be easier to get a younger person to do this type of thing, and it's done a lot (Mumbai, for example), but I have a hard time finding fault in the FBI searching out people who have this weakness, or willingness to kill innocent people, especially when these people are trying to contact terrorist organizations for training on how to kill innocent people.

This case is probably a better example of the point you're getting at:

Quote
A case in point is the arrest last month of a Pakistani-born suburbanite in northern Virginia who allegedly participated in a plan to bomb the Washington, D.C. Metro. What the 34-year-old computer-science graduate, husband and father, Farooque Ahmed, really fantasized about doing was joining Taliban-allied fighters in Afghanistan. He didnít get far. From start to finish, the guys he thought were his co-conspirators were actually undercover agents. It appears from the available court documents that the Metro plot could have been the undercover operativesí idea as much as Ahmedís, and if thatís true, then are terrorists really planning to bomb the subway in Washington, or is that just a fantasy of the Feds? The Farooque Ahmed case doesnít get us much closer to an answer, and probably doesnít make us much safer. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/11/27/somali-bomber-oregon-alleged-terrorist.html



It's symbolic of our struggle against reality.

Dr. Leonard HmofCoy

  • I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,673
  • Karma: +205/-69
  • His BRAIN is gone
Re: I don't like it
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2010, 11:49:40 AM »
Yeah, I was gonna say, you can convince half the country to vote for complete idiots, seems like convincing a teenager to start up a plot to 'blow up the school' might just be child's play. This is one reason why entrapment is considered illegal. It's morally questionable. If F. Lee Bailey was alive he'd be preparing to collect a lot of scalps on this case, whether or not the kid is found guilty of anything.

The converse may be true. You could take that same person and brainwash them into working for a charity, to do some good, but is that what the FBI does? No. They take people who are intellectually weak and are angry about something (again, that's half the country) and trick them into doing stuff they can be arrested for. That Ahmed case sounds like something ripped from a bad cop movie.

I've got a lot more to say about this - mostly about how the national security apparatus was busy persecuting environmentalist extremist groups whose biggest crime was typically vandalizing insured property, while al-Qaeda was building up huge capability for acting in the United States with impunity - but I've already got a migraine.
"Parasitic wasps laying eggs in other insects is a better love story than Twilight." - :bitzero:
"Anyhow, it was the best sentient food movie since Killer Tomatoes Eat France." - :flipper:
"lee marvin in drag is no way to spread the gospel, son." - TFJ
"It failed. My enemies have been purged." - Sidious
"It's not like there was ever a time I didn't think Rudy Giuliani was a smug gibbering imbecile." - random axe
"*drags taint* Oh cool, I didn't know you could do that." - mo.d